LDS Scriptures dis-proves Apostasy

Short – LDS Scriptures dis-proves Apostasy
Hi, I’m Danny. For 60 years I was an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, formerly known as the Mormon Church.
Today, I want to talk again about an essential teaching in Mormonism called “The Great Apostasy.”
Basically, Mormonism teaches that Jesus was a failure. At least that is the basis for which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exists today – the assertion that Yeshua promised to establish His church and to keep it going – but failed to do so. Not only did Yeshua fail, but He failed twice! He failed once following His mortal ministry in Israel and again following His visit to the Americas. Neither attempt to establish His church and keep it going was successful according to Mormonism.
As a young man serving a Mormon mission, I was instructed to teach the apostasy in the very first discussion or lesson. The Greek word “apostasia” means “falling or turning away.” It was important to drive home the fact that the primitive church went into apostasy soon after the death of Yeshua and His apostles. The missionary lesson was intended to set up the message of the restoration of the true church in these latter days through the Mormon prophet, Joseph Smith.
Now don’t get me wrong, there were pockets of “apostacy” throughout the early Church – as false teachers entered the body of Christ and through their influence caused “some” but not most to fall away from the truth of the gospel. Apostle Paul strongly warned the Saints at the time to avoid these false teachers.
The important thing to keep in mind is that Yeshua – during his mortal ministry -promised guaranteed success in establishing His kingdom – which was a spiritual kingdom – and that it would never be taken away from the earth. We read in, Matthew 16:15-18 “He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” He didn’t say, “upon this rock I will do my best to build my church and hope the gates of hell won’t destroy it or cause it to fall away.”
Because His church WAS built upon “this rock” – meaning Himself – Christ assured His disciples that the “gates of hell” would not prevail against it. This plainly means that nothing could or would stop the progression of Yeshua’s growing church from then to the present day.
Here is where I want to address an interesting problem for Mormonism’s doctrine of a “Great Apostacy”- which they consider to be a total and universal apostacy.
In the New Testament, we read about a conversation Yeshua had with Peter concerning the eventual fate of the 12 apostles. Peter specifically wanted to know what would happen to John the Beloved. John 21:21-25 “Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.” From this we learn that some people mistook Yeshua’s words to mean that perhaps John would live on the earth until Jesus’ Second Coming.
Well, of course Joseph Smith saw this as an opportunity to plagiarize and embellish this New Testament account by receiving a revelation from God recorded in, Doctrine and Covenants Section 7:1-8 The heading to this section reads: “Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by, himself.” Here it claims John wrote down the full extended conversation between him and Yeshua that was omitted in the gospel of John. In another video, I will examine this “parchment” Smith is referring to.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you. 2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee. 3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people. 4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom. 5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done. 6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.”
Wanting to tie all of this to the Book of Mormon to give it credibility, Joseph Smith created a similar situation when Christ visited the American Nephites following His resurrection. At that time, Jesus chose 12 men to be His special representatives in the Americas. Totaling 24 apostles on the earth at one time. Then, before Jesus departed He asked his disciples in, 3 Nephi 28:1 “What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?” Nine disciples requested to go to heaven when their ministry was completed. Jesus then turned to the remaining three disciples and asked, 3 Nephi 28:4 “What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?” Before they could answer, 3 Nephi 28:6 “And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.” Jesus knew they wanted to live forever. Besides, who wants to get old, sick, and die, right?
Then, Jesus went on to say, 3 Nephi 28:7 “Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.” Coincidently, these three men were given the very same promise as John the Beloved, that they would not die but would remain on the Earth until His second coming.
3 Nephi 28:8 “And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.” Latter-day Saints describe this “twinkling” change as being “translated.”
3 Nephi 28:9 “And again, ye shall not have pain which ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.” Like John the three Nephites would be busy teaching and converting people till the Second Coming. If that was the case, then the church never completely fell away as Mormonism claims it did.
3 Nephi 28:25 “Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore, I write them not, for they are hid from the world.” All the names of those 12 Nephite Disciples are listed in 3 Nephi 19:4, but Mormon was not allowed to identify the names of the 3 translated Disciples.
400 years later, as Mormon finishes writing about these disciples, he confesses, “But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.” (Mormon 8:10-11).
3 Nephi 28:27-28 “And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not. They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.” This passage has been used by many Latter-day Saints over the years to explain possible encounters with the famous “Three Nephites.” Latter-day Saints love to speculate about possible encounters with these three men. Odd though, that no one ever tells stories about encountering John the Beloved.
3 Nephi 28:29 “And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.” My question is – who are all these converted souls?
3 Nephi 28:30 Here is how they get around from place to place. “And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.”
4 Nephi 14 Mormon informs the reader that 9 of the Nephite 12 Disciples finally died when they reached the magical age of 72. “And it came to pass that the seventy and first year passed away, and also the seventy and second year, yea, and in fine, till the seventy and nineth year had passed away; yea, even an hundred years had passed away, and the disciples of Jesus whom he had chosen, had all gone to the paradise of God, save it were the three who should tarry; and there were other disciples ordained in their stead; and also many of that generation had passed away.” So, the Three Nephites continued to live on and minister to the people. And just like in modern Mormonism other disciples were called to replace those who had past, away – maintaining a quorum of 12 Apostles for a little while longer.
Mormon apostle Jeffrey Holland in his book “Christ and the New Covenant p. 307” confirmed these three disciples “continue in their translated state today, just as when they went throughout the lands of Nephi.”
The LDS Church cautions in Book of Mormon Teacher’s Manual, Lesson 42 that “stories often circulate about the three Nephites who were translated. Members of the Church should be careful about accepting or retelling these stories.”
As a side note: These three men were never referred to in the Book of Mormon as Nephites or apostles. They were simply called “disciples.” The phrase – “The Three Nephites” – was a saying coined by Elder Bruce R. McConkie who wrote the chapter headings for the 1979–81 editions of the Book of Mormon. Here in the heading of 3 Nephi 28 we find the phrase “The Three Nephites.”
Likewise: The title, “Captain Moroni” is another example of a well-known phrase that is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The closest we come to “Captain Moroni” is in Alma 61:2 when he is referred to as “Moroni, the chief captain over the army.”
In addition, Joseph Smith wrote a book called Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. Listen carefully to what it says, Moses 5:59 “And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and the Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen.”
According to the Book of Moses, the gospel “should be in the world to the end thereof.” How does that work with a universal apostacy? This same message is also in the Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 5:45.
So, now we have all four-standard works of Mormonism rejecting a universal apostasy. (Bible – John 21, Book of Mormon – 3 Nephi 28, Doctrine and Covenants – Sec. 7, and Pearl of Great Price – Moses 5) Yet Mormonism teaches the apostasy because Joseph Smith as a 14-year-old boy was told by God that all the churches were wrong and, His original church needed to be restored. Do you see the conflict?
Despite these extra Mormon writings, if there was a complete falling away – then the gates of hell did prevail, and Satan had the victory. But we know that no promise of Yeshua ever failed, and there never was a complete falling away. The gates of hell would not prevail against His true Body of believers, which has been under the power of the Holy Spirit for nearly 2000 years.
There were always faithful believers who remained committed to God’s Word and lived by the Spirit. Regarding the great commission to His disciples, Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Why would God send His Son to establish His church, appoint apostles, teach them and send them out into the world to preach His gospel, only to let it fall into total apostasy?
If Paul meant a universal apostasy, why did he write about the church of Christ existing throughout all ages. Ephesians 3:21” Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.” God received glory in the Christian Church from the time of Paul’s writing to the present day, and He will continue to receive such glory through all succeeding generations.
We read in, Jude 3 “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” The gospel of faith was once for all delivered to the saints – not to disappear for nearly 1800 years before coming back.
If the great apostasy did happen and all Christian groups were wrong and an abomination in God’s sight – then Yeshua and His apostles were liars – plain and simple and Joseph Smith was right.
If the three Nephites and John the Beloved were baptizing and conferring the Holy Ghost on people, then the church existed on the earth during the entire time. And there was no complete apostasy of the church as taught in Mormonism.
Joseph Smith drew a hard line in the ground when he stated in, History of the Church 1:150 “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
However, LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith stated, “As long as one elder remains on earth today, we would have the priesthood and could organize the church even though all the apostles and the First Presidency etc. were killed off.”
According to the Mormon scriptures we have covered here, there were 4 disciples with power to teach, baptize, and confer the Holy Ghost. That is a third of, a quorum of 12. They could do what Apostle George Q. Cannon in the book Gospel Truth, p. 208 says, “If every man of the Twelve but one were slain, the remaining one would have the right to organize a First Presidency of the Church, to choose Twelve Apostles and to organize the Church in its fulness and power and to preside over it. And his acts would be accepted of the Lord and binding upon the people. This is the authority of the Apostleship.”
Historical evidence, however, speaks against the LDS doctrine of a complete apostasy of the Christian church and undermines the whole reason for the Restoration and the LDS Church’s existence.
So, what do you think? Was there a great apostacy? After reading Scripture and carefully considering what Yeshua and His disciples accomplished as recorded in the Apostolic Record, I’m convinced it never happened. It is a lie manufactured by Joseph Smith and perpetuated by the LDS Church and its missionaries today. Now I’ve seen some recent pullback from the LDS Church admitting perhaps the apostasy wasn’t as total and complete as they have claimed over the past 200 years. I believe it is an attempt to look more mainline Christianity.
Something to consider! I have released another video on the difficulty of explaining a complete apostacy from Mormonism’s viewpoint. Check out more episodes like this at Talking to Mormons and YouTube.
Thank you for watching. God Bless!